Discuss the upcoming movie to be released in 2020 and directed by Jason Reitman.
#4937763
Kingpin wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 8:58 am
Alphagaia wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 5:00 am By the way, ghosts not appearing on film is kinda reconned by Afterlife, right?
When was it established that ghosts don't appear on film? The films (and I think the cartoon/s) have several examples that some... If not all ghosts can be photographed.
Yeah, I just checked and even in the first movie they are taking pictures of the grey lady, right? They got a video camera as well.

'Stop that!'
Last edited by Alphagaia on August 3rd, 2020, 9:12 am, edited 1 time in total.
#4937764
It is interesting that Afterlife is re-using that same angle from II as far as the public's belief in ghosts, etc. I wonder if that will be a significant plot point because an over-arching theme of the first two movies was believing/trusting the professionals, the Ghostbusters.
#4937765
Well, I can believe 30+ years a bunch more, especially with the trailer saying the kids don't know GB exist, and an adult explaining what happened. We actually don't know if other people don't know or don't believe in ghosts.
#4937766
To be fair, in Ghostbusters II they were FORCED to close shop. Maybe the fact that the government put them under a restraining order helped people viewing them as frauds and believing that they were the cause of it all.

In Afterlife they say that there hasn't been ghost sightings in thirty years.... A side effect of Vigo's defeat?
pizzarat liked this
#4937768
Hey, in a world where people can watch footage of the moon landing, or footage of astronauts taking off (events that spectators were there for), and STILL claim it's all fake?

Yeah, I absolutely buy that the GBs are written-off between I & II. Honestly, human beings are widely stupid and self-delusional when you look at our behavior, historically. Now, the only evidence of the non-belief shown in GB2 is the birthday kid's comment from his father (Well, Judge Wexler too). We don't see crowds booing the GBs as frauds on the street. For all we know in the rest of the world, the GBs are believed. But if they were widely agreed to be frauds, this is consistent with human nature. The appearance of Stay Puft is the same exact situation as the launch of all those rockets and space shuttles--it's televised, it's witnessed by people in the flesh--and there are still major swaths of people who choose to ignore that evidence because of any number of reasons.

I'm sure there were tons of people who still believed the GBs. But as others have reminded--the GBs were forced out of business by legalities, not via condemnation by the masses. I think it would actually be a prescient bit of writing for the series if the GBs constantly faced the struggle of non-belief--this really mirrors the real world struggle against ignorance, self-delusion and how increasingly anti-science this planet seems to become. I honestly think it's harder to swallow a world that wholeheartedly believes in ghosts. For a lot of people, proof of the supernatural is a terrifying concept, metaphysically. Proof of an afterlife? Shit, then Heaven and Hell might be real too, and there would be consequences for how you live your life! Or, if there's a guaranteed limbo, then you may never know peace from the grave and are cursed to wander the world. These are but a few things that would behoove people to not WANT to believe. Even if someone who didn't want to believe was there to see a paranormal event--it would be more comforting and easier to believe someone like Peck--that they'd been deceived by the GBs. It's hard to change long-held or built-in beliefs. It's a problem that plagues humanity.

And really, it all feeds back into GB2's themes about openness and acceptance being the way to win. GB2 is tremendously underrated on a thematic level.
pizzarat, Sav C, Kingpin and 3 others liked this
#4937770
RichardLess wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 8:29 am
Alphagaia wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 8:08 am

But the press was present during the whole affair?

They probably even got shots from Peck getting covered in goo.
I was just thinking about this. So who besides The Judge and Hardmeyer do we see outright saying ghosts aren’t real though? I guess there’s Jason Reitman’s character. But that’s kinda it. Is that right?It’s been 5 years since Gozer. The government shut them down(which let’s be honest, probably the right move lol). We only see a couple people outright call them frauds. One of them is a clearly a psychotic judge. Then we’ve got a douche politician...and a kid. When you think about it like that, I’m not sure it’s that big of an issue is it?

Until I thought about it just now, I use to think “Yeah why doesn’t everyone believe?” But really when you sit and think about I’m not so sure most people don’t believe(putting aside the new film and whatever happens there).
I'd buy this 100%. It would be super weird if the news report on the Scoleri's healed the entire city of disbelief! The majority of the crowd in the court are on at least Venkman's side over the Judge's, so I'm totally willing to go with your take.

As to the "it's ridiculous no one believes" thing others are saying - Peck didn't believe even after innumerate news reports, (the montage), multiple magazine articles (some in actual scientific organs) and the evidence of all the mad stuff coming out of the ECU after he has it shut down! He goes to the mayor and calls them frauds again. He must know there was no nerve gas - he's literally going to have had his office out to the firehouse to run tests as soon as the GBs are carted off to prison.

Point being, it isn't a POV exclusive to GB2. It's a big ask for a skeptic to accept the existence of ghosts, and it's entirely plausible that people that hadn't witnessed them directly (within the world of the movie universe), and even some who had, would still not believe in them despite the appearance of Gozer and all else.
#4937771
I can buy the disbelief in ghost between Ghostbusters and Ghostbusters 2. Like many have already said having the government shut them down and the lull in supernatural activity contributed to people believing that everything that happened in 84 was fake. Especially if what Peck said about the Ghostbusters using nerve gas to induce hallucinations somehow got out to the public.

Now the thing about ghosts not being able to be photographed is in the History of Ghosts book by Peter Aykroyd. In that book they say that ectoplasm can’t be photographed or exposed to light because it just disappears. Since that book talks about a big part of Dan’s family history it is possible that Dan Aykroyd could be applying the same rules to the Ghostbusters films. Of course liberties are already taken in the movies because in the films because Ectoplasm doesn’t disappear when exposed to light, also ectoplasm is supposed to be grey and feel like an ash like material and in the GB movies it’s just goo.

Now there was an episode of Extreme Ghostbusters Careful What You Wish For. In this episode Egon makes a statement that that it is impossible to photograph a ghost. So he made some adjustments on his computer so when he puts in the PKE readings into the computer an image of the ghost would actually show up. Of course that contradicts The Real Ghostbusters in a couple of episodes they took family like photos with Slimer and he showed on film with no problem.

Now in Ghostbusters 2 they took photos of Vigo and of course the painting shows up with no problems. However they don’t see anything supernatural until they run the photo through the spectral analyser. Now bringing this all the way to Afterlife with the Ecto Goggles with the now built in camera. What if the camera in the goggles is a built in spectral analyser? :):):)
twmedford23 liked this
#4937774
@doc:

I feel you are overlooking some points I made:

Namely the huge aftermath from the attack, the ghosts escaping and causing mayhem everywhere, the fact the various News stations took them serious before this happened, there were even slimfast commercials, the army taking them serious, etc. Especially the aftermath would be long: a firehouse explosion, a rooftop exploded, a church and a road completely destroyed, marshmallow everywhere.

In GBII, as I said, a judge suddenly doesn't believe in ghosts, roadworkers call them frauds, Hardemeyer doesn't believe in ghosts and gets them locked away in the loony bin by a psychiatrist who thinks they are mad.

The 180 in NY people believe didn't seem earned, but more importantly very poorly explained as they witnessed this all first hand.

Had GB II occurred in any another city I would understand.

It's still a good, fun movie. But I wish the start and ending just made a little more sense.
#4937779
GaudinosWheels wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 10:55 am
One of the story beats from an unused draft that I wished they could’ve worked in was Peter is the one who has to get the band back together.
I’d love to know more about this. What was the story behind Venkman being the driving force?
Peter's love interest in the August 5, 1988 draft was named Lane Walker and she goes to his TV show to ask him for help. So he goes to Ray and Egon, I recall for help, but they're hesitant to help at first. The August 5, 1988 draft can be downloaded and read on Spook Central's script page.
https://www.theraffon.net/~spookcentral/gb2_script.htm
#4937781
Ending of that draft always reminded me of the end of "Janine's Day Off". Wonder if anyone told Dan and Harold about that, doubt they were that closely involved in the cartoon to have known the individual plot lines.

Thinking more on Afterlife, I love the idea that the Ghostbusters are only really needed just before a major supernatural event. Would love for Afterlife to connect the dry spells together and have the original GBs absolved in the eyes of the public. And I really can't wait to see how they leave things open ended when all is said and done.
#4937784
RichardLess wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 5:46 am
Coover5 wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 5:16 am EDITED:

This comment was just a bunch of conjecture about the vigo painting but i don't want to add to this being so off topic so i deleted it. feel free to remove this comment.
Come on. Unedit that shit. I love me some Vigo painting theories. Nothing else is really going on. Lay it on me. Post it here or message me. I wanna read that.
The short version:

Paintings, tapestries, photos, drawings, carvings and other works of art have all been featured heavily in supernatural stories as means of extending life or entrapping spirits. In such stories artworks often:
*Act as a snare for spirits or souls trapping them within the art
*Act as a portal from one dimension to the next or act as a portal from one earthly place to the next
*The images (usually portraits) can live within the painting (see HARRY POTTER)
*They can offer immortality to the subject of the painting, drawing etc.
*Shift their image. So a person in a painting can age, change emotion or disappear entirely.
*Require destruction of the art to break the magic (paintings are slashed. photos are burned. sculptures are smashed etc)

Much of what we see Vigo's painting do is very standard stuff including it changing completely at the end. But now for some conjecture about why it changed the way it did:
* The painting must change to signify Vigo was defeated
* The change must be to something logical
* Our heroes are the most logical choice (who did you expect? the mayor?)
* The style used for the "Fettuccini" painting is fitting with the time period Vigo's painting was done
* The painting is meant as a triumphant moment that makes you smile much like Winston's "I love this town!" not a silly moment.

Again, it's all conjecture so I'm not saying I'm right. It's just guess work. If you want to enjoy another story about a magical painting I suggest checking out "The Picture of Dorian Gray" by Oscar Wilde.
Last edited by Coover5 on August 4th, 2020, 3:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
pizzarat, Sav C, Alphagaia and 2 others liked this
#4937786
Kingpin wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 8:58 am
Alphagaia wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 5:00 am By the way, ghosts not appearing on film is kinda reconned by Afterlife, right?
When was it established that ghosts don't appear on film? The films (and I think the cartoon/s) have several examples that some... If not all ghosts can be photographed.
I don’t think that’s true. In the movies we don’t see anyone actually viewing footage or pictures of ghosts. That’s why I said “hey GB2 could’ve easily fixed the people don’t believe in ghosts with this simple work around”. We see the ghostbusters taking pictures and video footage of the librarian ghost but we never find out if it works. As for Vigo. That’s different. They have to run the photographs thru a special machine to see the slime and weird face features.

Now the cartoon is the cartoon. But the movies? Unless I’m forgetting something ghosts are never seen on film or photograph.
#4937788
Alphagaia wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 10:55 am @doc:

I feel you are overlooking some points I made:

Namely the huge aftermath from the attack, the ghosts escaping and causing mayhem everywhere, the fact the various News stations took them serious before this happened, there were even slimfast commercials, the army taking them serious, etc. Especially the aftermath would be long: a firehouse explosion, a rooftop exploded, a church and a road completely destroyed, marshmallow everywhere.

In GBII, as I said, a judge suddenly doesn't believe in ghosts, roadworkers call them frauds, Hardemeyer doesn't believe in ghosts and gets them locked away in the loony bin by a psychiatrist who thinks they are mad.

The 180 in NY people believe didn't seem earned, but more importantly very poorly explained as they witnessed this all first hand.

Had GB II occurred in any another city I would understand.

It's still a good, fun movie. But I wish the start and ending just made a little more sense.
It’s funny. Until thinking about it I use to begrudgingly agree this was a flaw. But after thinking about what we really see in the movie, I don’t think the “why doesn’t everyone believe in ghosts” thing holds as much water as I once thought.

Let’s examine this. The judge doesn’t “suddenly” stop believing in ghosts, right? He just doesn’t believe. At all. He’s also insane and a crazy psycho. The psychiatrist also isn’t shown denying the existence of ghosts. However if anyone wouldn’t believe it would be a psychiatrist probably lol.

The road worker doesn’t exactly say they don’t believe in ghosts. In fact when asked what he thinks the equipment is used for he says “I don’t know catching ghosts?” They say the slime is unlike anything they’ve ever seen and “they must’ve put it there”. Based on catching the GBs in various lies I think it’s safe to say the road worker doesn’t trust these guys.

The GBs clearly have supporters based on all people who cheer for them.

But let’s look to our own world. As someone mentioned above. We went to the moon! A significant portion of people don’t believe it really happened. The earth is round: there are numerous people who believe the earth is flat. Then we have UFOs getting caught on camera but not everyone believes.

Here’s the rub though. If a 100 foot Marshmellow Man walked down the street in 1984 and some guys who invented equipment to catch ghosts blew it up...it might have more of an impact than what we see in the sequel. The Ghostbusters would be national figures. I don’t know that a Marshmellow Man would have people believing in ghosts though, since it didn’t really look like a ghost. It was probably just easier on a writing and story level to have the GBs start from a place of hardship, with people still doubting them etc
Sav C, robbritton liked this
#4937789
Coover5 wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 7:06 pm* The style used for the "Fettuccini" painting is fitting with the time period Vigo's painting was done
Was Peter making a pasta joke? I literally didn't get that until today...
RichardLess wrote: But let’s look to our own world. As someone mentioned above. We went to the moon! A significant portion of people don’t believe it really happened. The earth is round: there are numerous people who believe the earth is flat. Then we have UFOs getting caught on camera but not everyone believes.
Not quite flat eartherism, but I think this supports your point: https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way ... urvey-says
Alphagaia, robbritton liked this
#4937794
Some great points there, Richard.

I think we also have to consider people weren't as connected as we are now.

In the 80's, your bubble mostly consisted of the people around you and what the news told you. This meant more views and different opinions that shaped your world view. Tell someone you think the world is flat and your bubble will most likely contradict you.

Nowadays you can simply select people with like minded views, and filter out the people you don't agree with. Especially social media is guilty if this. Tell those you think the world is flat and they will agree.

Now, in the 80's there will always be people not believing the media or that we went to the moon, etc. But it wouldn't be as widespread or open as it is now.

Especially as NY City was ground zero for a HUGE spectral event. It wasn't just a marshmallow man that walked the street. Things were going haywire in the complete town for a notable amount if the time.
deadderek liked this
#4937799
mrmichaelt wrote:
GaudinosWheels wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 10:55 am I’d love to know more about this. What was the story behind Venkman being the driving force?
Peter's love interest in the August 5, 1988 draft was named Lane Walker and she goes to his TV show to ask him for help. So he goes to Ray and Egon, I recall for help, but they're hesitant to help at first. The August 5, 1988 draft can be downloaded and read on Spook Central's script page.
https://www.theraffon.net/~spookcentral/gb2_script.htm
Thank you mate.
mrmichaelt liked this
#4937800
Coover5 wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 7:06 pm
RichardLess wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 5:46 am

Come on. Unedit that shit. I love me some Vigo painting theories. Nothing else is really going on. Lay it on me. Post it here or message me. I wanna read that.
The short version:

Paintings, tapestries, photos, drawings, carvings and other works of art have all been featured heavily in supernatural stories as means of extending life or entrapping spirits. In such stories artworks often:
*Act as a snare for spirits or souls trapping them within the art
*Act as a portal from one dimension to the next or act as a portal from one earthly place to the next
*The images (usually portraits) can live within the painting (see HARRY POTTER)
*They can offer immortality to the subject of the painting, drawing etc.
*Shift their image. So a person in a painting can age, change emotion or disappear entirely.
*Require destruction of the art to break the magic (paintings are slashed. photos are burned. sculptures are smashed etc)

Much of what we see Vigo's painting do is very standard stuff including it changing completely at the end. But now for some conjecture about why it changed the way it did:
* The painting must change to signify Vigo was defeated
* The change must be to something logical
* Ours heroes are the most logical choice (who did you expect? the mayor?)
* The style used for the "Fettuccini" painting is fitting with the time period Vigo's painting was done
* The painting is meant as a triumphant moment that makes you smile much like Winston's "I love this town!" not a silly moment.

Again, it's all conjecture so I'm not saying I'm right. It's just guess work. If you want to enjoy another story about a magical painting I suggest checking out "The Picture of Dorian Gray" by Oscar Wilde.
This would have been great if it was somehow foreshadowed in the movie. Perhaps by explaining how Vigo got his spirit inside the painting.

A simple back and forth by Egon and Ray during the picture development scene would have been enough:

Egon: This painting should not even exist.
Ray: How so?
Egon: No one is credited for making it. Rumors claimed it was willed into existence by Vigo's own malice and hatred, empowered by the sacrifices which in turn fueled the very uprising that resulted into his own death.
Ray: Ironic. So his hatred made this...
Egon: A picture contains a thousand words.
Ray: Too bad he choose all the bad ones.

All in all: I love the ideas behind this movie, just wish they were given the time to be executed a little better by showing us a little more backstory.
Coover5, RichardLess, Kingpin and 1 others liked this
#4937802
Alphagaia wrote: August 4th, 2020, 1:42 am
Coover5 wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 7:06 pm

The short version:

Paintings, tapestries, photos, drawings, carvings and other works of art have all been featured heavily in supernatural stories as means of extending life or entrapping spirits. In such stories artworks often:
*Act as a snare for spirits or souls trapping them within the art
*Act as a portal from one dimension to the next or act as a portal from one earthly place to the next
*The images (usually portraits) can live within the painting (see HARRY POTTER)
*They can offer immortality to the subject of the painting, drawing etc.
*Shift their image. So a person in a painting can age, change emotion or disappear entirely.
*Require destruction of the art to break the magic (paintings are slashed. photos are burned. sculptures are smashed etc)

Much of what we see Vigo's painting do is very standard stuff including it changing completely at the end. But now for some conjecture about why it changed the way it did:
* The painting must change to signify Vigo was defeated
* The change must be to something logical
* Ours heroes are the most logical choice (who did you expect? the mayor?)
* The style used for the "Fettuccini" painting is fitting with the time period Vigo's painting was done
* The painting is meant as a triumphant moment that makes you smile much like Winston's "I love this town!" not a silly moment.

Again, it's all conjecture so I'm not saying I'm right. It's just guess work. If you want to enjoy another story about a magical painting I suggest checking out "The Picture of Dorian Gray" by Oscar Wilde.
This would have been great if it was somehow foreshadowed in the movie. Perhaps by explaining how Vigo got his spirit inside the painting.

A simple back and forth by Egon and Ray during the picture development scene would have been enough:

Egon: This painting should not even exist.
Ray: How so?
Egon: No one is credited for making it. Rumors claimed it was willed into existence by Vigo's own malice and hatred, empowered by the sacrifices which in turn fueled the very uprising that resulted into his own death.
Ray: Ironic. So his hatred made this...
Egon: A picture contains a thousand words.
Ray: Too bad he choose all the bad ones.

All in all: I love the ideas behind this movie, just wish they were given the time to be executed a little better by showing us a little more backstory.
I gotta say...that’s not half bad. The dialogue. I’ve seen a lot of fans try to write for the characters but I can easily see this in the movie. Nice little quip at the end to tie it into a nice exposition bow. *chefs kiss*. C’est magnfique!
#4937803
Davideverona wrote: August 4th, 2020, 2:53 am I think the ending was not epic as they builded it.

- zap Vigo!
- Vigo zaps back (we're running out of time to complete the fx!!!!)
- Vigo possess Ray!
- Slime Raygo.
- the end.
I loved GB:TVG and what they did to expand the Sedgewick Hotel. I would've loved something similar for the Ghostbusters at the art museum in GB2. They manage to blast their way in but once inside it's a maze of ghosts, mood slime and tricks trying to stop them.
deadderek liked this
#4937804
Davideverona wrote: August 4th, 2020, 2:53 am I think the ending was not epic as they builded it.

- zap Vigo!
- Vigo zaps back (we're running out of time to complete the fx!!!!)
- Vigo possess Ray!
- Slime Raygo.
- the end.
You wanna know something crazy?(which you may already know. But I love talking about GB2 so I’ll type it out anyways lol) The script version is even shorter. They reshot some of the ending, which is part of the reason you never see the ghostbusters and Vigo in the same shot ever. And why Vigo looks different(when he goes to get Oscar he looks like a different actor. His hair is all Frizzy). They added the bits where the GBs are thrown to the ground, Venkman insults Vigo, where Dana is trapped by that hose, when Vigo picks up the baby, when Vigo breathes that energy beam at the GBs and they shake. I think maybe Ray getting possessed might also be an addition but maybe not.

The original ending was this: Ghostbusters enter the museum, slime Janosz, Maybe Ray gets possessed? Maybe not. ghostbusters blast Vigo. Vigo “dies”. Thank god they were able to add what they were able to add in the first place.

The schedule for GB2 was even crazier than GB1. They were still shooting reshoots in April for a June ‘89 release. ILM had to tell Ivan Reitman “Nah. We can’t do anymore shots”.

Apparently Reitman wanted to add a bunch of stuff to the end to make it bigger. Vigo was going to make other paintings and art work come alive, apparently maybe a slime monster was also going to come thru the painting. Other ideas got tossed around. But they couldn’t complete any of that without pushing the release and so we got everything they could put into it.

If only they had delayed GB2 to Christmas ‘89. A) GB2 is a holiday movie! B) No more Batman C) More time to finish the reshoots and tighten the film. Imagine how different everything would be if those 3 simple things had been done. I wonder if we would’ve had a GB3 by now? Perhaps. Because I think it’s fair to say GB2 does way more business during the holiday AND out of Batman’s shadow. Something to think about...
Kingpin, Wafflerobot, Sav C liked this
#4937805
Thx for the kind words! Almost wanted to include Venkman, but I remembered he wasn't there.

At one point they wanted Vigo to posses the statue of liberty, but they thought it was to much if a repeat of the first. Which is a bit ironic, come to think of it.
#4937808
As much crap as GB2 gets at least they had a script available. Sounds like from Richardless description they put the unused ideas in the 2009 video game.

On a side note I was playing Skyrim. In the soul cairn one of the souls in waiting quotes vigo's death is a door line. I wouldn't be surprised if the same people who worked on the Ghostbusters game had a part in Skyrim's development.
#4937815
Sav C wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 8:28 pm
Coover5 wrote: August 3rd, 2020, 7:06 pm* The style used for the "Fettuccini" painting is fitting with the time period Vigo's painting was done
Was Peter making a pasta joke? I literally didn't get that until today...
GB2 100% ends on a pasta gag. I really love that it ends on such a throwaway joke, it's very in the spirit of Ghostbusters.
GB2 does a good job generally of puncturing things - as much as I love the build from "I just can't believe things have gotten so bad..." to "Something pure", I love that the swell is immediately undermined by Venkman's toga gag*. Every time things get too family friendly, someone pulls it back somehow.

*Watch Dan when Bill delivers that line, I get the feeling his laugh is unscripted and genuine!
Wafflerobot, Corey91, Sav C liked this
  • 1
  • 362
  • 363
  • 364
  • 365
  • 366
  • 380

Stay on target/topic.

My proton pack is RUBBISH!

Hi thanks for your comment. Apologies for forgetti[…]

Soundtrack for GB 2020?

Ray Parker, Jr. revealed no one from Afterlife rea[…]

I just read the tail end of this conversation to g[…]